Head to Head – What is wrong with Islam today? – AlJazeeraEnglish – Published on 22 Jun 2013
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3WFDKFkFBA#at=622&width=200&height=200
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3WFDKFkFBA#at=622&width=200&height=200
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3WFDKFkFBA#at=622&width=200&height=200
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3WFDKFkFBA#at=622&width=200&height=200
Kalighe June 24, 2013
” I want to learn why, so I can find solution to me and to my fellow man. That’s exactly the problem in Africa. The absent of free expression is the absent of knowledge, peace comes within you when are equipped with knowledge, nothing else.”
Sahle Yosieph
Freedom of expression should be respected and protected, but does insulting religions can be considered part of it ?. May be this is not a problem where there is a long history of liberal thought, like in most of the western world, but I doubt this can be tolerated elsewhere. Besides, I don’t think the problem is because of religions per se, it’s rather the decadent political systems and social conditions in countries with failed or inefficient States, that are causing it. Culture in a country is affected by the kind of political system people have. Where there is dictatorship, you cannot even practice your religion freely, let alone criticize someone else’s. You have societies where the level of literacy is very low, the economic situation is very bad, people struggle to have a meal per day. And this is a very important factor, because civilizations are built on economic surplus. We need to know how much our societies can tolerate criticism (constructive or not) and exercise our freedoms within the limits allowed but their realities. Forcing it on people is totally wrong, it’s counter productive. This should be left to a natural process that replaces the old with new, generational changes and gradual cultural transformations.
Kalighe June 24, 2013
“How can we protect the people from being inundated by right wing american christian influence and how can we stop the radicaliztion of Eritrean muslims by the neigboring countries who use religion as a stepping stone.”
Zaul,
To my understanding the main cause of radicalization in many parts of developing world is due to economic deprivation, marginalization and neglect. The State institutions in East African countries is controlled by elites with a religious or ethnic social base. There is nothing as such called inclusive political process that accommodates the interest and aspirations of all groups in the country. When those in the governments deny intellectuals from disadvantaged groups any breathing space, usually the political arena is open for those who find solace in their traditional beliefs and deal with issues at hand as they see it if.
Sahle Yosieph June 24, 2013
Kalighe
Can you clarify who is insulting? What is wrong with free expression, why is religion should be protected from be questioning, why do you think desiccation can only led to negativity, you don’t think can bring a positive result of understanding and harmony, after all it is man made believe you can’t convince otherwise. But you can believe what you wish, people follow religion to help them to be a better person, if that the cases lets be it. If society can’t tolerated difference is not worth living it. With out individual liberty there is no peace. Individual liberty comes with reasonability. If people allow being free they became a better citizen, because they value life. Let not be shy away from open desiccation.
Zaul June 24, 2013
Truly Truly I say to you, Kalighe
I agree that we should build an inclusive secular democratic system that strives to accomodate individual rights as well as group (ethnic/religious)rights.
The question is how do we do that?
We make a natural mistake in our understanding of Islamic tradition, assuming that religion means the same for Muslims as it has meant for most other religious adherents ever since the industrial revolution, and for some societies, even before that; that is: a section of life reserved for certain matters, and separate from other sections of life. This is not the Islamic world view. It never has been in the past, and modern attempts of making it so are seen as an aberration.
Islam is a “total way of life.” It has provided guidance in every sphere of life, from individual cleanliness, rules of trade, to the structure and politics of the society. Islam can never be separated from social, political, or economic life, since religion provides moral guidance for every action that a person takes. The primary act of faith is to strive to implement God’s will in both private and public life. Muslims see that they, themselves, as well as the world around them, must be in total submission to God and his Will. Moreover, they know that this concept of His rule must be established on earth in order to create a just society. Like Jews and Christians before them, Muslims have been called into a covenant relationship with God, making them a community of believers who must serve as an example to others by creating a moral social order. God tells the Muslim global nation:
“You are the best community raised for mankind,
enjoining the right and forbidding the wrong…” (Quran 3:110)
Throughout history, being a Muslim has meant not only belonging to a religious community of fellow believers but also living under the Islamic Law. For Islamic Law is believed to be an extension of God’s absolute sovereignty.
In Christianity, the distinction between the two authorities are said to be based upon records in the New Testament of Jesus, asking his followers to render unto Caesar what was his and unto God what was His. Therefore throughout Christian history until the present times, there have always been two authorities: ‘God and Caesar’, or ‘the church and state.’ Each had its own laws and jurisdictions, each its own structure and hierarchy. In the pre-westernized Islamic world there were never two powers, and the question of separation never arose. The distinction so deeply rooted in Christianity between church and state has never existed in Islam.
How can we forbid Islamic political parties, if it is seen as an oppression of religious rights?
Here’s a shocking case of a muslim intellectual who challenged radical islamic parties.
“Hamed Abdel-Samad is taking the call for him to be murdered seriously and has gone into hiding,” the head of the Munich-based Droemer Knaur publishing house, Margit Ketterle, said in a statement.
The calls for the author to be killed apparently came after a speech he gave in Cairo last week in which he criticized radical Islam and Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood, accusing them of spreading “religious fascism.”
Abdel-Sadam reportedly also said he did not intend to insult Islam but had a right to express his views.
Shortly after his speech Assem Abdel Maged, a leading member of the radical Egyptian group Gamaa Islamiya, used a television appearance to declare Abdel-Samad an “infidel”.
Kalighe June 24, 2013
@Sahle Yosieph: “Can you clarify who is insulting? ”
Well, I am sure you have come across people who equate Terrorism with Islam.
Of course, you would find it strange, if someone had to tell you, those who burn churches that belong to black communities in southern State of US are Christians. Some people get a sense of what people are actually are saying, only when the issue gets very close to them.
“If society can’t tolerated difference is not worth living it.”
Yes, you can stay where you are. For you it may be optional, but for some of us no. We have no better option than staying in our own country, and stick to the traditions that has kept us diverse and safe for centuries, as long us we can keep PDFJ interference and manipulation away.
“With out individual liberty there is no peace. Individual liberty comes with reasonability. If people allow being free they became a better citizen, because they value life. Let not be shy away from open desiccation.”
I agree to most of what you said. Freedom is an essential prerequisite for life, it’s not less important that water and air we breath. Without it life would be meaningless, we would be all living like a herd of sheep, flocking behind a mad man like Higdefites. When it comes to freedom, which is the highest human and cultural value, you either have it or not. There is no much middle ground there. By it’s very nature it’s indivisible, either everybody is free or we all risk of losing it. A country is free only when it’s people are owner of it’s sovereignty. I am for complete individual freedom, as long as it’s exercised within the boundaries of legality.
Zaul June 24, 2013
Kalighe,
The southerners were/are racists that believed black people were 3/5 human. There are Fundamentalists in every religion though, but that is not the point I raised. It is about allowing religious political parties. I would appreciate it if you could elaborate on the concept of separation of Mosque and state in Islam.
Kalighe June 24, 2013
“Therefore throughout Christian history until the present times, there have always been two authorities: ‘God and Caesar’, or ‘the church and state.’ Each had its own laws and jurisdictions, each its own structure and hierarchy. In the pre-westernized Islamic world there were never two powers, and the question of separation never arose. The distinction so deeply rooted in Christianity between church and state has never existed in Islam”
Zaul,
It’s not historically true that Christianity has always been concerned only with spiritual aspect of citizens life. Catholicism in it’s long history that has shaped most of Western world, has been either a State religion or the church ruled directly, for centuries. If you look at an old maps you will see that Christendom covered a large part of western Europe. Till the advent of Protestantism and the revolution led by Martin Luther, the church used to rule directly, levy heavy taxes and control minds. Catholicism was a State and religion, till it’s demise as political power last century, when with the Lateranensi Agreements (1929), Italian authorities reduced it to a four square km State. So, the distinction Christianity is not so deeply rooted, but it’s an important development.
“How can we forbid Islamic political parties, if it is seen as an oppression of religious rights?”
Well, again judging from recent European history, Christian Democrats exit/existed in many countries, although nowadays have lost popularity, as the traditional political classes underwent generational changes. Till seventies, the Italian couples had to go to France to get divorced, because the Church would not allow it in their country, church laws enforced by State. And this was a problem even for Eritrean mothers who had kids born to Italian fathers. The Italian State would not recognize as legitimate kids born from a second wife (so some were named even after their mothers Giovanni Lemlem).
So, it’s in the interest of all to avoid religious and ethnic based politics. But we will never be able to do so, until the proponents of secular State show good will toward all stake holders, and work hard to lay ground for inclusive political process.
As long as the State remains in the hands of some irresponsible elites, those who feel unrepresented, excluded and segregated, will always try to defend their interests by any means available to them. In Eritrean context, the problem has never been Islam or it’s view of the world as you want us to believe, it’s rather the absence of a State that grantees basic requirement of life, and the wrong policies of the oppressive regime. Muslims and Christians basically have the similar or I dare to say the same dreams: they want live in peace side by side as they did for centuries before, raise their kids, send them to good schools, see them growing, pass a peaceful old age, retire after making sure their posterity is safe, their country is prosperous and strong. They want live and die on their own land, buried beside their fathers and forefathers and rest in peace.
Is that too to ask ?
Zaul June 24, 2013
I did not get a straight answer.
The separation of church and state can be justified by a verse in the new testament.
Are there similar verses in Islam that can justify that separation.
It is one thing to have religion based political parties if 90-100% of the citizens adhere to the same religion. But in a developing nation equally divided into muslim/christian, it is a precursor to disaster.
Kalighe June 24, 2013
“It is one thing to have religion based political parties if 90-100% of the citizens adhere to the same religion. But in a developing nation equally divided into muslim/christian, it is a precursor to disaster.”
I totally agree. May be I expressed it differently, but that is what I said.
The disaster starts when the State is controlled by an irresponsible elite. Then anything can happen.
Kalighe June 24, 2013
“Are there similar verses in Islam that can justify that separation.”
Zaul,
To my understanding Islam has no problem with secularism and democracy, as long as that is not translated to mean people should be able to insult religions in the name of freedom.
Zaul June 24, 2013
Not insult, we should be able to question all religions veracity/validity.
Zaul June 24, 2013
But remember there are both christian and muslim elites.
ኣነ ክኣ ጥዕምቲ ከስምዓኩም 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU5E-exvLJs
Kalighe June 24, 2013
Take a break for a while, listen to this and think for a moment about ordinary people who give meaning to our life.
A gift to you all: ” Flowers will blossom ”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuMlBNCTTFA
sam June 24, 2013
sahle yosieph
i think u need to have an open minded when u say that how can we protect the people from being inundated right wing american christian influence.from my poin of view i think its wrong to say that,because one person can can exercise any bief as in on country even saytanizm as long as it doesnt harm any citzen oviouly u can see the radical islam what they are doing in the name of religion so they get panished for their actions by the law of the country they living in because they harming people but if u try to protect people and force them not to believe from what they believe it will be what goes roud comes roud and u will be forced to stop from what u believe.that is going to be more dangerouse that will also bring more tension amang citzens by trying to block some one blief who told u ur religion is right,the problem in eritrea is because the majority christians are greek orthodox they dont want see other to come out of the eastern religion and have their own mind and thats sad its ignorant to think that.i even know personally some eritrean prist telling the eritrean president eseyas afeworki BEJAKA NEZIOM PENTE ZBEHALU ATFALNA and next they will say the same thing to catholic,kensha ,adventist,jehova witness to muslims etc.after all who are this people call them selves orthodox try to prevent others from excersising their belief
Zaul June 24, 2013
of course belief or non-belief is a personal choice.
Religion may be in decline in the west, but the reverse seems to be happening in Africa. Part of what is so unfortunate about this is that Christian extremists in the U.S. have been quite successful in exporting their noxious brand of religious “cultural colonisation” to Africa. Many times these false prophets do it for their own personal financial benefits.
Kalighe June 24, 2013
” ..exporting their noxious brand of religious “cultural colonisation” to Africa. ”
Zaul
You see Zaul, this is what I consider a disaster. When the State tries to control which religion is right or which religion should not be allowed in the country, then you shouldn’t blame those who suffer from these divisive policies, when the stand for their own God given rights. Who care whether they are US based or China based, it’s their business. The State should keep it’s hands away.
If the State was not controlled by people with such mindset, you would not see “extremists” who want fend off those who want to tamper on their beliefs.
On this issue, I think you stand with PFDJ , to keep away the ‘infidels” (Zere Mariam).
You are a “Jihadist” in your own way -:)
Zaul June 24, 2013
“…On this issue, I think you stand with PFDJ , to keep away the ‘infidels” (Zere Mariam).
You are a “Jihadist” in your own way -:)”
Zere Mariam? What do you mean? Are you insulting me? hmmm…
I’m not advocating persecution on this basis. I should be able to preach the way I see it. Beleif is in someone’s heart, i can’t change that. But different societies are trying to influence a vulnerable impoverished people, I have to raise warning flags.
Kalighe June 24, 2013
“Zere Mariam? What do you mean? Are you insulting me? hmmm…”
Zaul,
No, I am not insulting you .. I am just repeating what some followers of Orthodox church say about followers of Protestant churches in Eritrea. Because they think Protestants don’t care much about Mary they call them ‘Tzere Mariam’ (Anti-Mary).
“But different societies are trying to influence a vulnerable impoverished people, I have to raise warning flags.”
This is what many of us see as a big problem with PFDJ regime. Religious should be left to religious institutions. State interference create unnecessary problems.
Zaul June 24, 2013
Kalighe,
Don’t worry I have a sense of humour. I liked the flower blossom video by the way :-). Are you having a Japanese period now?
I don’t represent the state nor the theists.
People can believe in rocks if they want, that’s not my point. Religious/ideological beliefs are part of Individual Liberty (as long as they don’t limit others liberty).
But if I, as an individual want to inform people, that those beliefs are lies. Should I be punished for blasphemy? That’s the other side of the coin of religious freedom.
Zaul June 24, 2013
We had religious extremists before PFDJ too.
Kalighe June 24, 2013
Corrected:
On this issue, I think you stand with PFDJ , to keep away the ‘infidels’ (tzere Mariam/Anti-Mary).
Sahle Yosieph June 24, 2013
Kalighe
Religious argument is like marry go round and round. It is individual interpolation of belief. Organized and control by religious institutions. No room for individual liberty. Like any corporation they are competing each other on who have the right passage to god. To use it as governing body is to keep the society stagnate and backward” I am sure you have come across people who equate Terrorism with Islam” most terrorism is acted in the name of Islam so you don’t you think is reasonable. The balm should be on the terrorist. What we have in Eritrea is not working for 99% of the people.” I am for complete individual freedom” lets build our coming free Eritrea base on that.